Growing Independence: Departmentalization in Grades Four and Five

What happens when elementary students begin learning from multiple teachers? Dr. Sara Missett and Starkweather Elementary 5th grade teacher Bevin Sullivan share how departmentalization is helping students build independence, strengthen relationships, and prepare for middle school through deeper, more focused learning experiences across WCASD.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

You're listening to Talking the WCAS D Way, the podcast where we share stories, updates, and voices from the Westchester Area School District community. I'm your host, Dr. Kalia Reynolds. Let's get talking. Welcome to Talking the WCAS D Way, a podcast where we highlight the stories, partnerships, and priorities shaping our district through the voices of those leading and living the work each and every day. Today's episode focuses on an exciting shift happening in our elementary schools, departmentalization in grades four and five. This model allows students to learn from multiple teachers who specialize in different content areas, creating opportunities for deeper learning, building stronger relationships, and increased student independence, all while preparing students for their next steps in middle school and beyond. This year we've begun implementing this approach in a small number of schools across our district, and we're learning a great deal along the way. I'm joined today by members of our team who bring multiple perspectives to this work. Our elementary direct director, Dr. Sarah Missit, and a fifth grade teacher at Dark Weather, Miss Sullivan. Thanks for being with us. So with that, ladies, let's let's start talking. Talk with us about um this the shift as far as how it benefits students. So, from your perspective, how are students benefiting from this model of departmentalization academically, socially, and in terms of their own independence? What do you see?

SPEAKER_02 1:37

First, thank you for having me. Thanks for being here. This is just such a joy. I think we our school definitely has said how fortunate we are to have been one of the pilot schools, and it has truly been an awesome shift for us. Um one of the biggest things academically, the teachers really get to focus in and hone in on the subjects that they're teaching. Um, there were a lot of changes at the beginning of the year with we had two new like curriculums pretty much, which we wouldn't have been able to focus and give all of the energy that we had to those if we were still covering all five subjects. Um so really being able to focus, put your attention there, become a true specialist in that subject and content area, um, and then impart that to the kids, I think was very helpful for them as well academically, that they were getting a stronger teacher. Um, so I think academically that that's the biggest benefit that we saw socially. Um it it allowed there were so many benefits for the kids. It really is one step closer, at least for fifth grade, for them transitioning to their middle school experience. I can say that one of my biggest challenges moving from middle school to elementary school years ago was I was used to that constant transition and seeing new kids and having different action interactions along the day. And then to go to one classroom with the same group of students all day long was difficult. And I think they were able to see that benefit that they had, they didn't have different classmates, so they stayed with the same cohort all day long. Um, but to have two different teaching styles, two different teachers, um, two different personalities, and to learn how to navigate that was a great step for them moving towards their future. It also we had to think about it. I wouldn't say departmentalizing helped them socially with their peers all that much. It wasn't that much different because, like I said, they were with the same cohort, but they were able, as they transitioned to both classrooms, to have different seating arrangements, where in the day it might have been the same classroom, but they still were partnered up with different people, um, and then just the different working environment, science, they were able to have some different groups, math, different groups if they were doing a play in ELA, so it did allow them some additional social experiences that that were enjoyable for them most of the time, and and they had to learn how to navigate some other times where the the comfort of sitting next to the same person or the discomfort of sitting next to the same person all day long, that was a huge thing for them. And then the last thing is them being able to navigate how to manage transitions, the materials. Um, that was something completely different for them. I I have a different experience in my classroom where I have flexible seating, so I've been used to them not having that desk where they can put everything in and lose things, and um, you know, it's all it's all been right there for them where now they had to pick up everything and take it with them to the next class. That was a very hard thing for them to do in the beginning, but we've seen so much growth with that, so I think those are are the key takeaways for the kids.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Oh yeah. Yeah. Do you find that students are engaging either in their learning differently or you said not so much with each other differently, but are you finding that they're engaging in their learning differently?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

I do, and part of the reason when going back to the how it has helped them academically, um, we also implemented a new teaching style this year in math called the Math Modern Classroom Project, which really focused on a lot of group discussion, a lot of collaboration, but also a lot of independent work. Um, so I think they were able to grow in that. They became more engaged in that, they had to be more responsible in learning the different styles of two different teachers, their expectations. Um so, yes, I do think that they they became more invested in their own education um with the changes. I think it it just was positive all around.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

Yes. I'm wondering as far as you started to talk a bit a bit about this um when you were sharing as far as what it looks like for students, but we as a district have our portrait of a graduate. It's new for us this year. We have five competencies. So for us as a district, it's really our north store. Everything that we're looking to do in one way or another, we want to be intentional about connecting to our portrait. And I heard some of the themes of responsibility and problem solving and communication. So those are some of our portrait competencies. Talk to us, and this is it could be for you too, Sarah. Like, how are you finding that departmentalization supports the development of those competencies in our students in our classrooms? I think I'll let Dr.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Messett come in and then I'll and then I'll follow up. Well, Bebby, you did say a lot about that because the portrait of our graduate emphasizes the responsibility that we are allowing our fourth and fifth graders to experience the adaptability of our kids transitioning from classroom to classroom, which they are not used to being in in combined in in one classroom. In addition to that, they are learning to communicate better with different teachers. Um remember, we're just we're one of the main reasons why we chose to departmentalize, especially in fifth grade, is to get them ready for middle school sooner. Uh and Beth if is a fifth grade teacher, Bev, you know this, that the second part of fifth grade is really when you are trying to build that independence and the responsibility of of almost being a sixth grader. So a lot of those and manage spring fever along the way.

unknown 8:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

For a fifth grader, absolutely. Um but it also so we do hit on the competencies for our fourth and fifth graders and them becoming more responsible for their own behavior, as Beth said.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Well, I think the beautiful thing about that is it's the connection to the future. And one of the things for Portugal graduate that we've tried to be intentional about is it's not just a high school thing. It's an it's an everybody thing from kindergarten all the way through. And to your point, Sarah, like what I'm hearing is we're getting them ready for the future as a transition from elementary to middle. So everyone has a touch point in this work along the way. Those competencies are huge, and I wonder if students are able to identify how they're growing and expanding. So let's talk a little bit about some of these lessons learned. This is our first year of implementation for just a select number of schools. We were able to have a slow rollout, really have um, I think some excellent feedback from our principals, from our teachers, leaning into our students along the way, because there was the design of this as we were starting. Last year, you were really integral about building that. But then once you have that program, like, okay, how is it going now that we're living it? And so for this first year of implementation, what are some of the key lessons that you've learned so far? Successes and challenges, because we know when something is new, there are going to be things you're like, that was great, and other things you're like, uh oh, not so great. So, what are you finding as far as those successes and challenges that you've learned throughout this this school year?

SPEAKER_01 9:47

One of go ahead. One of the I believe one of the biggest successes that we did um for our teachers is to create an expert teacher in a in a special content. Um they were teaching really four content areas um in in an enclosed classroom. Now Bev is teaching math, and she you have become an expert at math. Um I think that's a really important success to note for our teachers. Yeah, because I I really do that. Um and I think that you also have established really clear routines for our kids. Um I think that that's a success.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Well, and I I'm looking because I also have taken notes from you said like what what do the kids feel too? So I've taken some notes from them and they had some really interesting insights along the way. So, yes, you had mentioned that obviously these skills that they're gonna need, and we say this to them all the time: you are not whatever your personality is, isn't going to match possibly match the people that you're working with or that you're friends with. So you need to start to learn how to navigate dealing with different personalities, dealing with different teaching styles. Because again, and that's something we've always told them in fifth grade, but they're actually living it right now, so they're able to see what it's like to have two different teachers with two different expectations, um, two different personalities. Um, and some of the things that they brought out that they really liked learning this year was that adapting to the different styles, adapting to the different learning environments. I thought going back to their academics, someone gave me this that was beautifully said. Academically, they felt more success because it gave them a time and a place for a fresh start, fresh start and to a better chance for success. So, in explaining that, it was, you know, I I said one of my I'm jumping all over the place here. Do you want to narrow me in here? It's all good. One of the things that was a challenge for me at the beginning of the year was jumping right into math. And a lot of kids struggle with math and may not like math. So we we jumped right in day day one, I think, at least day two, where they were feeling that oh my gosh, I'm not ready for this, this isn't fun, this is like learning. But when you had ELA, you got to do the things that I miss, like like reading wonder and writing things all about me. Um, but as it progressed on, they said that it was good for them to be in math class, and if they didn't feel successful there, or vice versa, they got to get up and and walk. And those they even said those that struggle with attention, they they got a movement break and then they started fresh in a brand new learning environment with a different teacher. So I think that was very beneficial for them to change their mindset throughout the day. Yes, and and to recognize that I thought was huge. Um that's huge.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I didn't think about that. I didn't either, that's why it was good. Adults, we had that opportunity throughout the day to stretch or take a break or shift or move to another project or something, and so for students to recognize that that was beneficial, that that's that's a that's a clear strength for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Um revisit the question you asked, please.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Well, what are some things you've learned? So we've we're talking about some of the successes and the challenges and what that looks like from a student lens. So one success that I that I hear is that students have an opportunity within the course of the day to to change and to differentiate and diversify and have a good a good space. And for you, what does departmentalization, what does that look like or felt like? Because it's a it's a shift and a change in practice for you too.

SPEAKER_02 14:05

I I couldn't say this enough, and I know that this won't always be the case, but the way that our teams were arranged pertaining to me at my grade level was so perfect. Um, I have somebody that I can collaborate with on my teaching material, and that we can look at what the successes in each lesson were, what what we need to change in each lesson. Um, and that was content-based. And then so I worked very closely with Mr. A, who has been a godsend to me. And then my other partner in crime is Miss Buckley, and I think the that's where we really were able to focus on the individual students and their data and to really compare the benefit of that. You're on an island in elementary school. So if you have anything, whether you want to bring someone up for a different program, gifted, or if they're in need of some other type of support, it's just your your own personal experience where um now there's two adults that either are seeing the same thing. Um, and Miss Buckley and I worked really well with that in looking at the individual student data and their needs. And I think it just it developed a stronger experience for the kids in general, that you have your specialty and your subject area, but then you also have such good collaboration with your with your partner where you share your cohort and just the work that came together with your colleagues, it it was far better than it has been in the past. Huge. Yes, that that was a very big thing.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

How about for you? I mean, there were a number of schools that have been able to lean in from a small scale of this. What are you hearing or what are you noticing?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Well, certainly this success was the the expertise of the teacher. Um and challenge I would have to say is to ensure the consistency of communication across the grade level. Yeah. And and Bev spoke of it, that the teamwork that you establish, that everyone is consistent with how you communicate with 55 kids, 55 families is really important that we get that right. That is important.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Especially for something that's new, because that's a that's an excellent point you raised. The shifts that and what this looks like for we talked about for teachers, we talked about for kids, but for families. Yes. You know, if you're used to having one teacher be your main point of contact, and now it's a number of different teachers for different things, that's that's an adjustment. That is a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Learning that other person's way how they communicate and how they their expectations.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, so we made sure in the beginning of the year, Mr. Menix really stressed to the parents that you should be contacting both teachers along the way to again really build that core team. And we've found that if if a parent emails one of us, we always reply with the other teacher on it, so that we're always in the loop and to almost encourage the parents to do that as well. I do think one of the the only challenge we came up with, and this doesn't have to be the case, but in a true elementary model, if we had an assembly during our reading block, you could say, Ah, I'm just gonna push, I have to get this done. I'm gonna push that into I'm gonna borrow from math a little bit and use that. So, yeah, the scheduling and changes that come along were difficult because we really tried to keep both cohorts at the same place. Gotcha. Yeah, it might have been a different pace of learning based on the classes, but we really wanted to stay even and then the schedule disruptions, it was difficult. That was sometimes a challenge. Keep that balance. That's a great point.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

It was also for the half days when we had an abbreviated schedule. We found it challenging to get that time back.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

And we we managed again, couldn't thank my team more, um, but we managed to do a great job where we ended up just splitting every day. So if we had a half day, we would say, okay, we're gonna split here. Right. We're taking the each class for the same amount of time. We were fortunate because we have one special ed teacher that's designated to our grade, and there are some other grades that have split special teachers.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

So it was much more difficult for them to navigate that, but it was easy, and I think keeping them at the same schedule, that balance it's interesting because leaning in, we were talking earlier about like how students are demonstrating the competencies for a porch of a graduate. But I've heard that come up in how you as a team have navigated adaptability and communication and the responsibility as far as what does this look like? How are we gonna create and design it? How are we gonna solve around problems when we have this this schedule imbalance, and how are we gonna make this? And so I think that's the beautiful piece that we want to make sure that we're highlighting is that this is how we get opportunity for growth. This is how we get to lean into like, hey, this is a really good thing, or these are some things that have to get tweaked, but particularly for what I'm hearing from you is that there's community that has developed in new ways for just within your, not with just yes, the school, but within your within your team. And that's really refreshing to hear.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

One of the I have two that are ringing a bell with what students said, but one of the challenges for us in the beginning was that we still continued to call them my class and your class. And our team decided they're not, it's not my class and your class. They like they're both, they're our class.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

So to build that community that way. Um I think Mr. A said something to me at one point during the year that now I don't have X amount of kids, I have I have everybody. Yes, and I get to experience everybody, and we love that.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

That is one that is one of the huge strengths is getting to know more of the students in our building and making closer connections with them. I loved how you're talking about the problem solving. One of the things that the the students brought up was that they're able to see two different styles, not just of teaching, but problem solving alone. Yeah. And that can even be managing social drama behaviors. And we usually do Miss Buckley and I usually do speak to a group of students, a single student. We usually do that together so that they know that we're both we're both there. Yeah, and we're both on the same page, we're both there to support them. It's so intentional, yes, but I think then the kids see, oh well, Miss Buckley, she would want me to do it this way, but Miss Sullivan does it this way, and not that either are wrong, it's just cool to hear that they recognize because I don't see it, I don't see how she's doing it all the time, but they're recognizing that they're getting a little bit of both, and who who do they want to shape their problem-solving strategies from, or is it a combination of both? Very cool. So I thought that was good. And then another piece that they mentioned, I was like, I don't know how how has the empathy increased with this departmentalizing. And one thing they brought up different personalities. Uh-huh. Because we get distracted and And get involved in what we're doing. So I actually had the kids one day set all on their iPads, everyone set an alarm so it would be loud enough to hear so that they would go. But there's definitely a time where the kids are out in the hallway waiting to come into the room to go out of the room. And I I'll give Mrs. Doran and Mr. A the plug that they're their transitions are seamless.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

That is awesome.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

But the kids said that we have to show empathy because if there are kids that are straggling behind to talk to you or ask you a question, we have to recognize that and and have patience. And you know, think about why they're there. And maybe this student needed help and they need their privacy with you alone. So we're gonna wait patiently. And I thought so inside.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

So that has I think in that regard that has built that for that recognizing what other people need and providing that time and space for that moment is huge.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Which I said was different if I had my class all day. Right. I would find different times. But with them leaving, I I unless I have a duty, I don't see those kids until or after 1230. So for them to check in, there was a lot of anxiety in the beginning, but I think yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Well, I think that's that's the great thing about why we want to be able to share and highlight and talk about this because there's so many nuggets of goodness that you've been able to elevate. And oftentimes when you're doing the work, you're doing the work, you're living it, you're not having an opportunity to step step back, to celebrate, to affirm, to think about like what's the been the growth and the progress over the course of the year. And you've highlighted so many of them. So I I think that that's a a big deal for sure. I think that's the cutoff time.

SPEAKER_02 23:55

The biggest thing that they have all noted is their transitions. That was super hard. And I I even said to them, Do you remember in the beginning where we had your like a class list and we gave you three strikes, you're out, like you had three times to go back and get your materials? I said, I don't think any of you got past three, and we don't even we don't even think about that anymore. So the growth in that alone, their responsibility, their transitions, their materials, and and just getting the schedule down, they've succeeded.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

That's that's a big, big part of this. I mean it's we are going to talk to our middle school teachers next year to see what they their interpretation of departmentalization is how and how ready our fifth graders are going to be for sixth grade. Excellent. In the three buildings that have piloted it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

What a way to look ahead, yeah, plan and prepare for the future, be responsive to what we're seeing, and move forward in the best way for our students. Thank you both for your time today. It's been a joy, and thank you for your work. Until next time, keep listening. Thanks so much for joining me on Talking in the WCASD Way. New episodes drop every other Wednesday. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss a conversation. Until next time.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Because our district is full of stories.